The stock shows several scrapes, scratches, and compression marks. Mechanics:The action functions correctly. I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return , That's a beauty! We offer a 7 day inspection period and hassle free returns to ensure every customer is happy with whatever they buy from us. Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? There are a variety of reasons things may have been changed or simply ignored. -Saginaw (S.G.): Marked Right Side: "PO" "SG" -No other contractor made these -Type III (Post War) -Could be marked: "SA" "RIA" "P" "R" -Bolts -Type I (Flat Bolt) -Inland: Winchester made 828,059, followed by Underwood Elliott-Fisher at 545,616, After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have a manufacturers mark. This is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be closely scrutinized. their historical value. your community AND if they have it in stock, you can pick your gun up Many were constructed using whatever parts Each prime contractor was assigned a code letter: Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be expected to have all R coded parts. Saginaw = SG; Saginaw (Grand Rapids) = SG Standard Products = S; Irwin-Pedersen = IP; IBM = B; Rock Ola = R; National Postal Meter = N; Quality Hardware = Q; Underwood = U; Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be The rifling is sharp. It is in about Very Good Plus to Fine condition. Underwood supplied barrels for Irwin-Pedersen (page 50). The trigger group is a type two pattern with the upright Inland markings on for use with a select fire mechanism. Most of our products are unique. The stock rates in about Fine overall condition. There has to be either a period or apostrophe after each letter of the SG on the receiver heel. Which Saginaw? That serial number was issued to Standard Products. Barrel Date: September, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. And unlike our competitors, it extends beyond the buying process. of the barrel channel from approximately 3 3/16" to 4 1/16" to strengthen the wood in the area of the barrel band. Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944. fire carbines like the M2's. Another word of caution is that brand new reproduction carbine stocks have been produced within the past couple of years. Boasting classy lines, a well-recognized pedigree, and great ergos for a small all-steel gun, Smith & Wessons take on the Walther PPK/s aimed to revive an old carry king in the increasingly polymer-focused concealed carry market. Overall, the gun is in nice condition. Saginaw Gear made receivers with wide locking tangs. Click Here to view our Gunbroker page! Some enterprising fakers have welded up very deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver. Top: M1 stock with no cutout for selector switchBottom: Cutout for M2 selector switch inside the left side of the stock. The LOP measures 13 inches from the front of the trigger to the back of the buttplate. My guess is that since the receiver has the SG on the left front, it's probably a Saginaw-Saginaw and not a Saginaw-Grand Rapids (IP). The two most common types of wood used for caliber .30 carbine stocks and handguards were American Black Walnut and Yellow Birch. Most of these marks are light or small. DIV. If you choose to do so please Only Irwin-Pedersen & Saginaw SG receivers were produced with a tooling hole (page 22 of Craig Rieschs book, U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production 7th Edition). We got our hands on one of the original MCXs for some testing. another state. The serial number would make it an early one too. Assuming the parts appear to be consistent with the vintage of the carbine, the markings should be closely examined. There is light erosion at the muzzle. However, the majority of carbines made in WWII had the non-adjustable L type rear sights. Serial numbered receivers transferred were not restricted to a certain block of serial numbers. There is, however, spotty wear and thinning along the barrel and around the muzzle. If a Saginaw S'G' strip it down to see if it has any IP Irwin Peterson parts, could be a transitional carbine. It has a barrel stamp of 10-43, but also has the stamp of Blue Sky/ Arlington, VA. Everything appears to be original and shows very little wear. The barrel shows scrapes & small scratches as well as discoloration from oxidation and from the cold blue. The technical storage or access is required to create user profiles to send advertising, or to track the user on a website or across several websites for similar marketing purposes. Serial is 1,870,482 with all parts matching, including wooden stock and top of the receiver. The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 111). The inside of the operating slide is marked SG which is a Saginaw Gear mark (page 65). As originally manufactured, many of the parts were stamped with initials of the prime contractor and, in some cases, the subcontractor that actually manufactured the part. Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you. Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you. If inventory ran out it could shut down production. Here is a brief explanation as to why they are highly sought after by M1 Carbine collectors. Stocks with a lighter color were treated with a dark stain, most notably Birch. Contracts had a completion date but there was no requirement for completing one contract before starting another. Earlier stocks sometimes had their High Wood area removed. Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. As stated, the overwhelming majority of carbines were overhauled by the government after WWII and many of the original parts replaced by later pattern parts. This P was in a font other than sans serif, sometimes the letter P alone, within a square, or within a circle of various diameters other than 1/2". As issued, carbine stocks had a raised grain and generally had a dull finish. It appears the bridge may have been eliminated on type III stocks M2 selector switch, it was a type III stock manufactured by Winchester or Inland prior to The magazine is marked I-P-K upside down which is an Irwin-Pedersen mark not listed in our source material (page 142 -143). Resulting in the change of the design to the type V stock. Product Information & Specs. the first M2 stocks. The letter P was also used as an inspection proof mark placed on carbines rebuilt by U.S. Army Ordnance. There were 5 basic stock styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. The top of the barrel is marked UNDERWOOD / 3 43 and P. After the Irwin-Pedersen was canceled. Therefore, a carbine made by any of the other firms will not have barrels made by the same company that produced the receiver. .30 M1. and the top rear is marked SAGINAW S G / 1872994. The letters were followed by That S/N is a Saginaw Grand Rapids number. SOLD - Saginaw Gear M1 Carbine. Most of the markings are deep. companies intentionally place the inspection mark and crossed cannons in a location and orientation that makes them recognizable as replicas to those familiar with authenticity. Alcohol, Tobbaco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. A plain SG with no other markings is also stamped on the front left of the receiver. Copyright 2011-2023 All Rights Reserved. Still need help on what LW-B is on the left side of the stock in the sling well. American Black Walnut was the most common wood used. Inland receivers initially rejected because of an off spec deep hole drilled for the recoil spring and guide, later recovered and altered to use a detachable main spring housing). PRICE LOWERED BY $500 WAS 5999.99, WARNING! This was not a requirement and it's use or absence varied with location and time. A full parts list with their markings is included in the photographs. This Inland M1 Carbine was made back in 1944. The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. Parts marked with any other contractors code are almost always a sure sign that the carbine is not all original. The inside of the operating slide is marked IP which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 65). Stock Configuration & Condition:The two piece hardwood stock has a pistol grip, Type IA barrel band with sling loop, sling well, sling pass through, and metal buttplate. Free shipping for many products! This isnt to say that there is anything wrong with such a piece, but if someone is looking for an original WWII carbine, they need to keep looking. You certain the receiver is S'G'? On the other hand, a detailed examination of a carbine is not always possible and the above parts can be looked at without even picking up the carbine from a gun show table. Barrels were a critical component in the production lines. Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions. customers to the absolute best of our abilities. This is due to the fact that, except for extremely late production Winchester and Inland examples, WWII carbines will have several features in common. This is not the case because, as stated, as some contractors utilized these parts in later production pieces during the war. were parkerized, the tint and texture of these parts varied. The practice of restoring the overhauled carbines by replacing later and/or non-original parts is a widespread practice among many collectors today. then allowed to dry. The technical storage or access is required to create user profiles to send advertising, or to track the user on a website or across several websites for similar marketing purposes. A brand new condition stock on a carbine with well-used metal components is a sure indication that something is amiss. There are 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 Carbines. Some were sequential but many were not. Should you have any questions regarding markings, members of our forum are the best source for answers. I'm sure it's not all original. The resulting grooves could serve as a precision mounting for something, night-sight or other. The Carbine Collectors Club. It's listed with Inland. All matching even the trigger group. Every week we put items for sale starting at $1 ! on a limited basis prior to the introduction of the M2 stocks but no documentation has been There is insufficient data to determine if every serial number between the lows and highs was duplicated or if it was random. Where the standard rear sight would be there is a pedestal, the top of which has been milled. This beautiful firearm is part of a 50+ year old collection! Read about the Saginaw (S.G.) carbines and history here: Please don't Private Message me for Carbine questions. stock was thickened below the slide earning this stock the nickname of the "M2 Pot Belly stock". Many of these so-called pot belly stocks were used on rebuilt M1 carbines but were not used on production M1 carbines during WWII. The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network. To get better and faster responses and opinions. As with all used firearms, a thorough cleaning may be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements. Overall, this rifle rates in about Very Good Plus condition as refinished. Overall Condition:This rifle retains about 87% of its metal finish. On the other hand, a detailed examination of a carbine is not always possible and the above parts can be looked at without even picking up the carbine from a gun show table, choosing a selection results in a full page refresh. If a receiver was scrapped and not used, its serial number may or may not have been reused. Saginaw Carbines made at the Irwin-Pedersen Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . We believe we sell living history, and honor the veterans who fought and died for our freedoms. of 0.3. In 1942 the Ordinance District requested of General Motors Saginaw Steering Gear Division take over the M1 carbine production assigned to Irwin CARBINE / CAL. 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. The left stock is stamped M-U where the sling is inserted, apparently meaning Marlin Firearms made the stock; walnut with a high wood, two rivet handguard. Rather than assume the documents were followed to the letter, the serial numbers in tables C-F are presented with the lowest and highest reported to date. Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. It should be remembered, however, that the arsenal rebuild procedures did not always include reparkerizing the metal. The trigger group is marked IP on the right rear which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 78). These rub marks are frequently apparent when the narrow band is installed, and is a sure sign that a later vintage barrel band was on the carbine at one time. 3?7XXXX ? Serial number blocks were assigned by the Ordnance Department on an as needed basis, generally in response to the awarding of a contract to a given manufacturer. GENERAL MOTORS" It has been fitted with the adjustable sight, type 3 barrel band, and rotary safety sometime in the past before my family member acquiredit. A little history of Saginaw (S'G') and its carbines. Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments If a receiver has its original barrel and the The Type IA barrel band is marked KV-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 59). be complicated. The rifle comes with a 15 round magazine. Wood being wood, it is subject to cracks. The Grand Rapids facility stopped carbine production on 01 Jan 1944 but continued to make receivers and trigger housings which were sent to the Saginaw Plant for assembly. It has a high wood stock and the serial number is in the 3.3 mils. I have some other shooters so this one has been a safe queen. Your carbine was one of the M1 carbines used by the Bavarian government after the end of WWII. Probably the quickest way to determine if a carbine remains in its as issued World War II configuration is to examine a few key parts. A total of over 6.1 million M1 carbines of various models were manufactured, making it the most produced small arm for the American military during World War II (compared with I do know it is a really nice M1 and I would not part with it. While most major component parts such as receivers, barrels (with a few exceptions), trigger housings, etc. Saginaw (S.G.)-Main Manufacture and identification codes: "S.G."-Main plant location: Saginaw, Michigan.-Average Cost to Government per completed rifle, $38.00 There are some exceptions to this rule as several prime contractors are known to have utilized parts made for other prime contractors. This M1 Carbine will stand out in any collection. More pics on my later response. departments within Inland over the years of production. The receiver is marked SG under the wood and uses a wide locking tang. The buttplate shows light scrapes & some discoloration along the edge. The bore shows an M.E. Stocks made of Marked INLAND MFG. subcontractors, suppliers, members of the military or government, and others to show appreciation for their assistance and cooperation Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. I'm guessing this indicates a Springfield Armory rebuild. Normally, sanded and refinished wood is quite easy to spot. The sling is marked with a blurred stamping between the buckle & strap. Thinning on the trigger group. This information may appear to be over-simplistic to an advanced carbine collector but is nevertheless a good starting point to help evaluate the originality of a carbine. Anticipated shortages led to the use of yellow birch. This M1 Carbine is 1 part short of being considered all matching. It is in about Good condition. This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our, Specific M1 Carbine Contractor Discussions. The barrel markings are well defined. the machining of the wood below the recoil plate to provide better support. Saginaw SG took over the Irwin-Pedersen facility in April of 1943 and produced M1 Carbines using Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG parts. found to indicate this was done by the original manufacturer(s). I have one, 1776xxx. The bore is mint. final inspection. Below is a breakdown of the parts: Barrel: Inland. They show light scrapes & areas of discoloration from oxidation. For more information: www.p65warnings.ca.gov. Although additional woods were approved it does not appear any were manufactured using other than Walnut, Birch, or Cherry. Box, Paperwork & Accessories:There is no magazine. There is no bayonet lug. Some of these blocks were split up and used before or after other blocks. Carbines with a Serial Number above 8 million. with Inlands war effort. The band will have 3 spot welds. annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. Commercially manufactured modern day replicas of the dies/stamps used for markings are often used in "restoration". Manufacture date shows 9-43 with barrel date 9-43. Box, Paperwork & Accessories:The rifle has a canvas sling attached. They didn't come any other way--period. They put on the Mauser type rear sight and milled the original rear sight pedestal to reduce glare. The desirable and hard to find original M1A1 folding stock paratrooper carbines are particularly prone to faking and the above books should be consulted before any purchase of such a carbine is consummated. Any completed Irwin-Pederson rifles were most likely reassembled and reinspected by Saginaw SG after they took over the contract. No one, so far, at CMP has ID'ed it yet. The hammer is marked SG which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 89). During the first half of production the barrels were often mounted on a receiver within 1-2 months of when the barrel was made. Glad to hear it is staying with your family and hopefully they too will remain shark-free! Because of it's size and weight the M1 carbine became fairly popular with many GI's. Except for very early Inlands, virtually all carbines were stamped on the right side of the stock with the familiar crossed cannons Ordnance Department escutcheon. Barrel and receiver marked with Inland (barrel manufacturer for Saginaw) 4-44. It's the first I've seen. Typically these punch marks are rather deep and readily apparent. XA through XD was assigned for use by their Engineering Section on carbines built for testing and evaluation by their engineers. It looks good and has a strong bright bore. There is a P stamp where it should be. barrel includes a date, it may provide a general idea of when the barrel was attached to the receiver. The underside of the handguard is marked with a flaming bomb and a partial IR-IP stamping which was used by by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG(page 138). IP and S'G' mixed. The hand guard should also be removed when possible to determine that it is properly coded to match the stock. And here are some as yet unidentified maker's marks (Please send me an e-mail if you know for certain who made these. Also, any indention in the wood at the tip of the stock covered by the barrel band should be examined. 217: M1 Carbine Barrel Band Type 3 (Bayonet lug)Used G.I. Got 1 ! and is not a very late production Inland or Winchester, one may rest assured that the piece is a post-war rebuild or has been assembled from parts. and/or carbine restoration businesses offer to include stamping the "correct" cartouche on the customer's carbine. Our research indicates that it is an Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor mark from the Keller Bras Company. would be used for the U.S. Carbine Models M1 or M1A1, and some of the M2's, were made well after the receiver was completed as all of these models used the same receiver. Photograph has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the fake stamps. numbers (i.e. Bolt is parkerized. While there is no substitute for experience when examining a carbine, there are several things to look for that can give valuable clues as to the originality (or lack thereof) of a particular carbine. Military AAY inspector stamp on left of stock near reciever. Instead of buying a gun thats reconstruction of this history, we have a short survey on our forum (with instructions) Some people estimate a carbine's date of manufacture by adding the quantities manufactured month to month The M2 Carbine had a selective fire capability i.e. full auto. Neither the M1 Rifle or the M1 Carbine had a selective fire capability. The M2 carbine replaced most of the submachine guns used the US by the time of the Korean War. Saginaw or Saginaw'. The M1 Garand was a fantastic rifle. It was reliable, accurate, and powerful. And it was a semi-automatic service rifle in a time when almost every powerful nation was issuing bolt action rifles. If you want to find out more, heres a video that discusses why it was such a great rifle: block in the same time frame. The trigger group is marked SG on the right rear which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 78). The right side of the receiver shows some thinning from cycling. The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network. Model: M1 Carbine. The receiver, bolt, and trigger group have been refinished. Serial numbered receivers that failed to pass inspection were set aside as rejects if the defect(s) could not be brought up to minimum standards. The magazine release is marked IP-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 100-101). The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive. due to a lack of original documentation. The gun comes with one period-correct magazine. We did not fire this rifle. No specific manufacture dates are listed due to a number of reasons explained on pages 24 to 26 of Scott Duffs book, The M1 Carbine Owners Guide. Sapwood is pale yellow-gray to nearly white. The decision for which receivers 94 W. Cochran St., Suite B There was no requirement as to using the serial numbers in order. When the narrow L type non-adjustable rear sights were replaced by the adjustable variety during overhaul, the later types were generally staked into place by punch pricks on both sides of the sight base. to the assigned serial number blocks. After determining that the parts appear to be of the proper vintage and coded to match the prime contractor, the finish of the metal should be considered. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary Yellow Birch is more dense than Black Walnut and therefore slightly harder and heavier. After WWII it was not uncommon for M1 Carbines to be converted to select Walnut, Birch, and Cherry stocks were placed in raw linseed oil for a period of time, Such markings can be sanded off by someone wishing to remove such evidence so any sanded areas make the stock suspect. A M1 with high wood is going to bring a high price. Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) They are a specialty that see comments at the best online prices at eBay! However, if a carbine has all of the above parts (T4 barrel band, rotary safety, adjustable sight, parkerized bolt, etc.) http://m1family.com/general-history-rbine-t33.html, http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/serialnumbers.html. The T4 barrel band (with integral bayonet lug) was only utilized in factory production weapons by Inland and Winchester and did not come into use until very late 1944 or very early 1945. barrel channel (bottom), Thinner wood along the right side adjacent the slide on the earlier stocks (top) The varnish is a little thin around the sling cutout. There is no bayonet lug. We would like to encourage you to share information you may have that will help reconstruct what was actually done versus planned. I have never really studied the parts or did much research. Taming the SFAR: How Ruger's Small-Frame .308 Runs Suppressed. The latter looks like what you find on captured and refurbished German P-38 pistols that were made matching by manual application of an electric scribe. The elimination of the bridge strengthening the stock forward of the trigger housing weakened this area making it prone to cracks. We have a / GENERAL MOTORS / 1-44 and P. For sale is Inland M1 Carbine ser# 3064171. NOTE: We have added in the descriptions of parts we have of different markings we have come across over the years. Location: The People's Glorious Republik of Southern Kalifornistan. Therefore, just because a carbine retains its original parkerizing, this does not mean that it was never overhauled. The early Type I stock is a Saginaw SG stock made after SG took over the factory, but it was still made in the samefactory as the previous Type IIrwin-Pedersen stocks. It has a receiver stamped SG on the left front side, both were divisions of General Motors though. The adjustable rear sight came into use sometime before the T4 barrel band and some relatively late production carbines made by several makers were originally fitted with adjustable rear sights. Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user. *Post Reserved in case I run out of space*. We hope to raise awareness and understanding for the collector community, as well as encourage new collectors to join the hobby. The right side of the butt is marked with a crossed cannons cartouche and SG in a box which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 124). For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. Forgeries are a serious concern for collectors. Make:Saginaw SG. I can't find out who made it. I've spent the day going over my Inland. The thin high wood area was eliminated as it was perceived as a weak point. As time goes on more and more carbines are having parts replaced. Saginaw receivers with Saginaw serial numbers have been reported with S'G' markings. It is assumed some were sequential but possibly not all. During the production of their type III stocks in 1945 Winchester changed Sent the OP some pictures of an all S'G' I had listed here last year, didn't get a single request for pictures from members, and asked two questions but had no reply. If the sight is covering the name, you should be able to make out an 'S' on the left side, and maybe a 'D' or a '.' Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. Given the high volume of production, receivers were generally assembled as part of a carbine within a few months after the receiver was serial numbered. The barrel is an Underwood barrel that was supplied to Saginaw SG. / 44. Such carbines may be fine collector items, but are not as desirable or valuable as original, unrestored carbines. The stock shows several scrapes & scratches. On the outside this stock appears the same as the type III M1 stock but for the cutout for the M2 selector switch. Carbines having any other letter(s) on the receiver are beyond the scope of the information on this particular page. part of our network, we sell THEIR guns first whenever possible. It is only fair that some context of time be added to such comments. C+B I.I.P. The hammer is marked IP which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 89). The rear sight is a Type I dual flip up aperture. Used early in production. Make:Irwin-Pedersen. G.S. Numbers were issued sequentially, beginning where I have a high wood Rockola on my early IP. standard for all type V M2 pot belly stocks by all manufacturers. How long ago? Black cherry was approved and saw very limited use. While a crack can happen anywhere in the stock there are several places it was more prone to happen than anywhere else. With World War 2 M1 sling. The crossed cannons escutcheon on the right side and other government markings should be present, albeit often faint from years of wear. Simi Valley, CA 93065. Many online gun sales actually take away from your local Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) The rear sight is a Type I dual flip up aperture. Bore Condition:The muzzle and grooves are light gray. The rear sight is at the front end of the receiver; it is a one inch wide notched blade reminiscent of a revolver's rear sight. We can be contacted at the following e-mail address.